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[Music]

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welcome to shattered reality with your

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hosts kate valentine and farrugia

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prepare to head her paradigms shifted in

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the truths questioned and now shattered

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reality hey k hi you guess it's that

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time again yes it is and it's almost

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july we've blown away another half year

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here at shattered reality podcast I'm

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goes fast and you're having fun it is

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actually jun 28th 2016 and i'm just back

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from the very very fascinating and

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interesting society for scientific

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exploration the symposium which was held

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in denver colorado during the past week

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and boy were there some interesting

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people there and I think I've corralled

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the several interesting guests as well

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as two of our previous guests who were

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there who would be happy to come back on

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again so that is really good news for us

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but today we have a really really

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fascinating lady who is a very well-read

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and up meticulously a kind of researched

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author here she has written fiction and

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she has written a lot of translations

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from spanish to english very well

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translated i might add and so today we

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are going to welcome the Flannery

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O'Connor award winner for short fiction

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and also the author of today's Book of a

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reference which is not fiction

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metaphysical Odyssey into the Mexican

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Revolution Francisco I

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Darrell and his secret book Spiritist

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manual so let me now welcome see em meio

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hello cm how are you well I'm great and

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I'm delighted to be on your show thank

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you so much well we are really delighted

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to have you aren't we absolutely and um

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you're your whole background is very

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interesting you are calling us I hope

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you don't mind me saying from Mexico

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City well which is a place I visited

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twice very interesting a place to go and

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also you hail from El Paso outlook el

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paso texas and you lived your early life

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in California Southern California but

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now you're living in Mexico City

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actually actually read grip with Silicon

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Valley at Northern California oh ok ok I

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did when I was a little kid but yeah

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yeah so I'm a California and culturally

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but but but the Texans can claim me so

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your book um is all about francisco i

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madero now i may not be pronouncing that

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in the correct way it's like I and his

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fine madera that you got it okay okay

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and he led a revolution in Mexico and he

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was the president for approximately

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three years is that correct I think was

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less than that he led the 1910

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revolution and when we hear about the

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mexican revolution that went on for a

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long time several years actually but he

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was the leader of the first spark of it

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which was formally announced on november

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20th and after winning the or apparently

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winning that revolution he did a second

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campaign for the presidency won the

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election and took office and he held

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office for a very short period unless he

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would have been 1911 and then in

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February of 1913 he was murdered in a

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coup d'etat

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and then at that point the revolution

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just ground on with a lot of different

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chapters and I think probably most

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listeners even even those who don't know

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Mexican history have probably heard a

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punch of via of course Emiliano Zapata

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and these were important actors in the

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revolution at the beginning in 1910 they

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allied with francisco madero and Madero

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was recognized by all of them as the

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leader of the revolution so at that

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point so it's a long messy complicated

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episode but it certainly is from reading

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the book it is it is incredibly a

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labyrinth Ian and the way that these

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people knew each other of such

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intricately woven entanglements I've

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never I've never seen a better

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description of six degrees of separation

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only in this case it's mostly about two

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or three degrees of separation yeah some

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of it was very fun to discover yeah it

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was it's your book was just amazing um

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now the book really has like two parts

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correct that's right it's my book about

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his book and it includes my translation

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of his back so it the way the book comes

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off to me as your book that's all about

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how it got you know all about your

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journey and about his journey and all

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the people he knew and the way he died

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and all those various things and then

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there's his book on spiritism right and

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if anything has gotten mouthful of a

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title metaphysical Odyssey another

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mexican revolution of a lot of people i

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have laughed at that title and i still

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love the title i'm definitely married to

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that title but it's an odyssey is about

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you know how he came to lead the

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revolution because of his Spiritist

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ideas his metaphysical philosophies but

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is also an odyssey for me in

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understanding this as his translator and

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then finally it's an odyssey i hope for

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the reader who may

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no nothing about metaphysical religion

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or may know nothing about him and the

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revolution and Mexico so it's kind of an

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odyssey of understanding and in his case

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in Odyssey that brings him to action in

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the revolution and finally his death

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well it's an odyssey enough that those

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three ways yes I I totally agree you had

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an odyssey he had an odyssey and and and

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there was a spiritual odyssey in there

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as well and both historical and

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spiritual um I was very struck by your

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breadth of knowledge involving the

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history of spiritualism and spiritism

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and how you wove that into Masonic stuff

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and other kinds of metaphysical thought

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even going to theosophy and Hinduism so

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um could you perhaps clarify for our

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listeners um the difference between

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spiritualism and spiritism yeah well

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spiritism it's important to understand

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is is from spiritualism so it really

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starts with spiritualism with which

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really starts in upstate New York oh yes

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and and so round about the the middle of

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the 19th century I mean at most

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histories of spiritualism there's a you

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in there to distinguish it from

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spiritism spiritualism most histories of

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spiritualism and by the way the the one

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that's most frequently referenced is by

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Sir Arthur Conan Doyle to Geiger

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Sherlock Holmes he was a great believer

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in spiritualism and he wrote a standard

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history of it and so that began with a

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lot of psychokinetic phenomena and that

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kind of took its own path and Madame

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Blavatsky showed up in the middle of all

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that and that was the whole movement of

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theosophy which kind of is related but

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it's not the same thing

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then where where this comes into our

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story with Francisco Madero in Europe

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they heard about this about the

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spiritualism and about the phenomena in

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upstate New York and they were a number

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of mediums one of them was Diddy home

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who was a Scot who had moved to the

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United States one of my favorites yeah a

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really interesting guy a very

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interesting person and hated tours of

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demonstration tours throughout Europe

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oftentimes with the aristocracy

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including Emperor's and empresses and

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this got a lot of attention and so there

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was a French educator who has a real

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mouthful of a name and he's better known

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as Allan Kardec but that's a pen name or

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a Spiritist name his original his actual

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name is i'll see if i pronounced it

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right a poly day or I politte Leon then

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his heart prevail um I never used in May

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French so I'm sure my French teacher is

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laughing for the spirit world dizzy

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Lizzy I give you addy in French but but

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Allan Kardec what he did was he was very

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excited by these phenomena particular

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particularly table tipping where people

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would sit around a table and all hold

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hands to make sure nobody was cheating I

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gasps and to raise the energy and the

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tables would literally start to dance

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around by the way if you haven't seen

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that you can find a bunch of him on

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youtube it's quite funny but he got very

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excited by those and decided that this

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was the new frontier for science and so

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the way that he decided to study this

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was i like to make the analogy that as

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you might take a microscope to look at a

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leaf in detail he worked through mediums

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to investigate the spirit world so he

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did that he interviewed the spirits

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through mediums and produced a

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literature and this is the book of the

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spirits the book of the mediums and ein

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several other books and this body of

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work by allan kardec is sort of the

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codification of spiritism in spiritism

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is very similar to spiritual

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but it goes into more detail on it it

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has a much closer idea at least at that

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time with reincarnation I think nowadays

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it's more things have evolved and

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they've become different people have

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their own ideas and I think probably

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many spiritualists do you believe in

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reincarnation but at that time there was

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a clear difference the Socialists didn't

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and the Spiritist dead and the Spiritist

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followed alan kardec so it was Allan

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Kardec sparks and some of his followers

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works who came after him in the late

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19th century that Francisco Madero

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discovered when he was a student in

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Paris so that's kind of my long answer

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to your question well helps yes yes it

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really does and as you may remember from

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our email conversation that I'm very

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interested of course in those folks from

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New York State and how you know didi

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home and the Fox sisters and oddly the

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founder of Mormonism on the Church of

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the latter-day saints Joseph Smith he

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lived in the same area in approximately

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the same error not the same year and it

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is also a hot spot for UFOs that area of

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New York even as Kate knows we were

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recently added up what was the name of

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that festival uh it was hot now you got

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me off and I know uh pine bush pine bush

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festival which is held every year in

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that area of New York State and it's

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basically celebrating the sightings of

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ufos and it's a family fun day and they

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try to make a fun and not fun of it but

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have fun with it and in the evening they

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have very serious speakers on the UFO

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topic and it has been a hot spot for UFO

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activity right up until the current time

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and there was a big flap of UFO activity

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which was known as the Hudson Valley

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triangles but that was 1980s well that

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was recent compared to who

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the founding of the Mormon Church true

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true but you know speaking of churches I

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would imagine mr. mattero grew up as a

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Catholic coming from Mexico oh yes and I

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that must have been quite to switch for

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him then yeah yeah i think you know it's

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interesting i listened to your recent on

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podcast which was so interesting the one

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with andrew chestnut about lasamba

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murthy which is a very different thing

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done spiritism they're different and I

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hope we can talk about that and answer

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some questions about that later there

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Madero had nothing to do with the Santa

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Mort there nothing no I could imagine

271
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but but the thing is what's very

272
00:14:10,819 --> 00:14:08,220
interesting about that as he commented

273
00:14:13,190 --> 00:14:10,829
is that many followers I'm the something

274
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:13,200
weren't they which is also the case with

275
00:14:17,660 --> 00:14:15,510
followers of spiritism and is also the

276
00:14:19,630 --> 00:14:17,670
case with many fathers of the Nino

277
00:14:22,819 --> 00:14:19,640
financia which we can also talk about

278
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:22,829
interesting may identify that many of

279
00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:25,370
them not all of them but many of them

280
00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:28,529
self-identify as Catholics and yet the

281
00:14:34,730 --> 00:14:31,550
Catholic Church prohibits all this stuff

282
00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:34,740
no strongly in Italy these are not

283
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:36,540
recognized Saints this is you know

284
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:38,930
listen to this a little bit akin to

285
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:43,110
Santeria that the people the Santeria

286
00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:45,690
people they consider themselves general

287
00:14:51,230 --> 00:14:47,700
Catholics but then they have extra

288
00:14:53,660 --> 00:14:51,240
saints and lots of little figurines that

289
00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:53,670
I've seen in the book Protestants and

290
00:14:57,530 --> 00:14:55,350
get it over this is this is probably

291
00:14:59,269 --> 00:14:57,540
probably true all over the world that

292
00:15:00,889 --> 00:14:59,279
there's different folk traditions that

293
00:15:02,690 --> 00:15:00,899
people follow that the church doesn't

294
00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:02,700
provide but there's to do anyway and

295
00:15:08,689 --> 00:15:04,920
then they still show up at nasse and you

296
00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:08,699
have the virgin and so on so I think

297
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:10,500
definitely the Maduro family definitely

298
00:15:15,199 --> 00:15:12,570
considered themselves good Catholics and

299
00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:15,209
the children were educated in Catholic

300
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:18,540
schools and so on and so forth so well

301
00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:20,130
they use that as certainly as a

302
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:22,649
partially governmental control to which

303
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:26,160
I think also probably got him a little

304
00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:29,279
bit separated from the church and then

305
00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:31,470
I'm not sure I follow you well you know

306
00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:33,860
the church being so strongly regulatory

307
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:38,420
among the working class

308
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:40,639
and he seemed to champion the working

309
00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:43,910
classes and he probably thought of the

310
00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:46,190
Catholic Church is detrimental to them

311
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:48,529
because they were so strongly regulated

312
00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:53,360
and not really left to have a less

313
00:15:57,370 --> 00:15:55,310
regulated life for one of a better word

314
00:15:59,199 --> 00:15:57,380
I I would think that I don't know

315
00:16:02,199 --> 00:15:59,209
perhaps I'm absolutely wrong it seems

316
00:16:04,060 --> 00:16:02,209
that between spiritism and Catholicism

317
00:16:06,730 --> 00:16:04,070
in his mind it was probably a schism

318
00:16:09,939 --> 00:16:06,740
yeah I which is the main difference

319
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:09,949
really is that he as he states and miss

320
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:11,810
Curtis manual and this is really where

321
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:14,000
the church has some trouble with it is

322
00:16:20,019 --> 00:16:16,850
he says you do not need the ritual of

323
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:20,029
the mass oh that you can commune with

324
00:16:27,370 --> 00:16:23,600
the divine and the astral or so but you

325
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:27,380
do not need to go to a priest and so you

326
00:16:31,329 --> 00:16:29,360
know his philosophy that he stayed since

327
00:16:33,220 --> 00:16:31,339
Paris manual it's very similar to

328
00:16:36,910 --> 00:16:33,230
Catholicism and that the emphasis is on

329
00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:36,920
being a good person and you know all the

330
00:16:41,439 --> 00:16:38,360
kind of things you would hear in Sunday

331
00:16:43,810 --> 00:16:41,449
school you know and and the the Lord's

332
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:43,820
Prayer and all that kind of stuff but I

333
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:45,680
mean there's nothing very exotic in that

334
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:47,810
regard he's just basically saying it's

335
00:16:50,889 --> 00:16:49,910
important to be a good person and this

336
00:16:53,319 --> 00:16:50,899
is what you have to do to be a good

337
00:16:55,689 --> 00:16:53,329
person and charity and love your brother

338
00:16:58,509 --> 00:16:55,699
and all those things but you don't need

339
00:17:02,259 --> 00:16:58,519
the mass now that goes directly against

340
00:17:04,740 --> 00:17:02,269
the Catholic Church and they also feel

341
00:17:07,770 --> 00:17:04,750
that in the Catholic Church that

342
00:17:12,819 --> 00:17:07,780
community communicating with spirits is

343
00:17:16,270 --> 00:17:12,829
is is diabolical so be good bad so they

344
00:17:19,809 --> 00:17:16,280
say so is that so what no I think that

345
00:17:21,370 --> 00:17:19,819
that was where the break was i don't i

346
00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:21,380
don't really know that it went a whole I

347
00:17:26,049 --> 00:17:23,270
mean I couldn't really speak to it in

348
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:26,059
more detail I think had he lived I think

349
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:28,730
he would have articulated a much more

350
00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:31,130
detailed philosophy of education and

351
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:33,950
public education well he didn't really

352
00:17:39,490 --> 00:17:36,080
see this as just religious beliefs but

353
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:39,500
is science this is the future this ah i

354
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:41,570
see okay he believed that what he was

355
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:44,480
doing was scientific so i think that had

356
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:46,850
he lived that you know and had he

357
00:17:50,890 --> 00:17:49,510
politically been able to he would have

358
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:50,900
my

359
00:17:56,620 --> 00:17:53,210
is he would have gone more against the

360
00:17:58,330 --> 00:17:56,630
Catholic Church on many different fronts

361
00:18:02,170 --> 00:17:58,340
including education but that didn't

362
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:02,180
happen well what did happen cm what was

363
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:05,330
a fact that you wrote in your book which

364
00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:08,210
is way off catholicism and i am not a

365
00:18:12,820 --> 00:18:10,790
Catholic so I'm not offending myself and

366
00:18:16,450 --> 00:18:12,830
if I I don't expect that I'm offending

367
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:16,460
most Catholics this gentleman was a

368
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:20,450
freemason Freemasonry is kind of the

369
00:18:28,180 --> 00:18:23,570
Christian antithesis of Catholicism I

370
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:28,190
mean when you go back to the to the the

371
00:18:34,710 --> 00:18:32,480
time of jacques de molay and and Joan of

372
00:18:37,210 --> 00:18:34,720
Arc and so forth who laid the

373
00:18:40,210 --> 00:18:37,220
foundations during the Crusades for

374
00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:40,220
Freemasonry it was directly against the

375
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:42,920
Catholic Church and they were burned at

376
00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:45,530
the stake and even to this day in

377
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:47,900
suburban neighborhoods in the United

378
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:50,720
States the Knights of Columbus hate the

379
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:52,880
Freemasons and the Freemasons hate the

380
00:18:56,980 --> 00:18:55,520
Knights of Columbus so it would seem I

381
00:18:58,660 --> 00:18:56,990
don't mean that each and everyone hates

382
00:19:00,160 --> 00:18:58,670
each and every one but you know what I'm

383
00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:00,170
saying that's it they're they're

384
00:19:06,910 --> 00:19:02,960
fraternal organizations for the most

385
00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:06,920
part that tend to not careful one

386
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:08,780
another and you cannot be to my

387
00:19:13,630 --> 00:19:11,600
knowledge as least as of my childhood be

388
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:13,640
a member of the Catholic Church and a

389
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:16,160
member of the Freemasons and did not the

390
00:19:22,270 --> 00:19:18,770
Freemason Scottish Rite make a big fuss

391
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:22,280
when when Madero was killed they did

392
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:25,010
they did and that was actually one of

393
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:27,530
the most fun parts of my research was

394
00:19:31,930 --> 00:19:29,600
they went into the library of the temple

395
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:31,940
in Washington DC the one that's on

396
00:19:38,190 --> 00:19:34,570
fourteenth Street in the district and

397
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:38,200
they have a wonderful library there and

398
00:19:44,770 --> 00:19:41,050
for anyone who hasn't been in there it

399
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:44,780
looks very foreboding but you can just

400
00:19:49,930 --> 00:19:47,120
walk up go in and they'll give you a

401
00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:49,940
tour oh I African if you have to pay or

402
00:19:55,150 --> 00:19:51,470
not but I mean you can have a tour and

403
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:55,160
they have docents and and it looks like

404
00:20:00,520 --> 00:19:57,410
the set of a movie in there like it's um

405
00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:00,530
you know it's a replica of an antique

406
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:02,630
temple it's really wild but they'll give

407
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:03,960
you a tour anyone

408
00:20:08,060 --> 00:20:06,330
and have a tour and by the way I'm not

409
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:08,070
talking about the one in Alexandria

410
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:10,320
that's a different one this is the the

411
00:20:14,270 --> 00:20:11,820
one that has the library and it's on

412
00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:14,280
fourteenth Street and and Washington DC

413
00:20:19,340 --> 00:20:16,590
but they have the most wonderful library

414
00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:19,350
and and you can google it up it has a

415
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:21,360
web page and the librarian was

416
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:23,850
incredibly helpful and she brought out

417
00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:25,650
all the issues of the magazine where

418
00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:28,230
they were complaining bitterly very

419
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:30,360
angrily about the murder a brother

420
00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:34,010
madero i think in mexico though that um

421
00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:37,380
mmm it's a little tricky and here's

422
00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:40,230
where i got i think it gets a little bit

423
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:42,150
tricky and making generalizations about

424
00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:45,330
the masons because in mexico in the 19th

425
00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:47,880
century that you served in a way the

426
00:20:51,890 --> 00:20:50,520
role of political parties that you know

427
00:20:54,470 --> 00:20:51,900
now there are regular old political

428
00:20:56,510 --> 00:20:54,480
parties just like in the US but back

429
00:20:59,300 --> 00:20:56,520
then a lot of people organize themselves

430
00:21:01,400 --> 00:20:59,310
around these lodges instead of having a

431
00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:01,410
you know you know a political party like

432
00:21:05,780 --> 00:21:03,990
a conservative or liberal or republican

433
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:05,790
or democrat and here in mexico we have

434
00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:08,340
the pre or the pan or the prd but they

435
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:10,260
would at that time congregate around

436
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:13,290
lodges and there was a lot of i think i

437
00:21:17,030 --> 00:21:14,640
think one of the things that can confuse

438
00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:17,040
a lot of people is it's difficult to

439
00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:19,200
draw really firm conclusions about each

440
00:21:25,910 --> 00:21:22,260
person because like we were talking

441
00:21:28,030 --> 00:21:25,920
before about Theosophists Madero new

442
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:28,040
people who were spiritists and

443
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:31,290
theosophists and fellow Masons but some

444
00:21:36,410 --> 00:21:34,290
were not some were just spiritus and

445
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:36,420
some were just theosophists or just

446
00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:38,400
Masons or they were theosophists and

447
00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:41,880
Masons but not spiritists it cuts really

448
00:21:47,060 --> 00:21:43,260
it's like a mosaic it gets really

449
00:21:48,740 --> 00:21:47,070
confusing um the Weaver said no no I was

450
00:21:51,020 --> 00:21:48,750
gonna say but that that's true generally

451
00:21:53,450 --> 00:21:51,030
speaking with people who are serious

452
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:53,460
philosophers I mean above all he wasn't

453
00:21:58,100 --> 00:21:56,640
philosopher I had to say so and you know

454
00:22:01,910 --> 00:21:58,110
regardless of which path he was

455
00:22:03,650 --> 00:22:01,920
following under sincere 12 he certainly

456
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:03,660
came as you point out from a background

457
00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:06,650
of extreme wealth and yet cared for

458
00:22:12,980 --> 00:22:10,470
people that worked with or for him and

459
00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:12,990
developed a whole movement around that

460
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:15,460
belief so

461
00:22:21,870 --> 00:22:18,610
and was assassinated for him yes it was

462
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:21,880
a seems like a dark moment in US history

463
00:22:28,889 --> 00:22:25,210
that i was really basically unfamiliar

464
00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:28,899
with because the ambassador to Mexico

465
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:35,200
was such a a cowboy and a kind of a sort

466
00:22:42,810 --> 00:22:39,000
of narcissistic or sociopathic cowboy to

467
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:42,820
add to it is his behavior in manner

468
00:22:50,010 --> 00:22:46,210
towards the whole situation did not seem

469
00:22:52,769 --> 00:22:50,020
to have any a give to it to sort of kind

470
00:22:54,389 --> 00:22:52,779
of make all the people happy he just

471
00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:54,399
wanted it his it was his way or the

472
00:23:00,149 --> 00:22:57,100
highway and whoever died in between was

473
00:23:02,730 --> 00:23:00,159
just tough luck he was not a popular

474
00:23:06,169 --> 00:23:02,740
character but his kids with this is

475
00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:06,179
ambassador Henry Lane Wilson and he's

476
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:08,740
one of the arch villains of Mexican

477
00:23:16,019 --> 00:23:13,210
history I think that's a fair

478
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:16,029
generalization to make but he was

479
00:23:22,769 --> 00:23:19,120
quickly recalled he had supported the

480
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:22,779
coup d'état and the general that

481
00:23:28,529 --> 00:23:25,840
murdered Madero and so when the new

482
00:23:31,409 --> 00:23:28,539
administration came in coincidentally

483
00:23:34,110 --> 00:23:31,419
that was the Woodrow Wilson an elation

484
00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:34,120
elation who knows maybe they were

485
00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:36,460
related at some point but there were

486
00:23:40,889 --> 00:23:38,230
there was no overt relation that we know

487
00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:40,899
of and it was just a coincidence that

488
00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:42,220
they have the same name but but

489
00:23:47,610 --> 00:23:44,500
president wilson had him recalled and

490
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:47,620
sent somebody else so but but that is

491
00:23:53,639 --> 00:23:49,809
bitterly remembered by many mexicans

492
00:23:55,980 --> 00:23:53,649
bitterly remembered it and it was it was

493
00:23:57,419 --> 00:23:55,990
very interesting to read his memoirs one

494
00:23:59,460 --> 00:23:57,429
of the things they really enjoy it and

495
00:24:01,830 --> 00:23:59,470
doing this book was just delving into

496
00:24:03,630 --> 00:24:01,840
the period and just going into all the

497
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:03,640
things i could find in the memoirs of

498
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:05,710
people who had witnessed things or lived

499
00:24:11,010 --> 00:24:07,990
through things or had known Madero was

500
00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:11,020
really fascinating it is a very very

501
00:24:17,130 --> 00:24:13,960
complex book and I would suggest that

502
00:24:19,919 --> 00:24:17,140
readers like take a pen and paper and

503
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:19,929
just make some notes and look up some of

504
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:22,570
these people on on you know the internet

505
00:24:27,659 --> 00:24:25,570
or in history books because um you

506
00:24:29,410 --> 00:24:27,669
really do have to really concentrate

507
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:29,420
it's very very

508
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:32,930
very interesting and as I had said it's

509
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:36,710
just a very intricately woven series of

510
00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:39,290
entanglements and the one involvement

511
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:42,350
that I was unaware of the scope of and I

512
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:44,570
have a little funny a little funny

513
00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:47,360
anecdote about this is about the German

514
00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:51,200
involvement in Mexico in the late 19th

515
00:24:58,780 --> 00:24:54,200
century I had no idea and my little

516
00:25:03,460 --> 00:24:58,790
anecdote is simply that I have a car

517
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:03,470
which is a a Volkswagen and it is it's a

518
00:25:09,310 --> 00:25:06,400
it's it's a hybrid it's a jetta hybrid

519
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:09,320
Volkswagen not a very popular model but

520
00:25:15,430 --> 00:25:12,050
I happen to like it and it was made in

521
00:25:18,460 --> 00:25:15,440
Mexico but a German motor was put in it

522
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:18,470
and unknowing all this history that i

523
00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:22,400
now know it's funny because I call my my

524
00:25:30,970 --> 00:25:26,120
little Volkswagen I call her Linda

525
00:25:36,850 --> 00:25:30,980
Ronstadt because this a German motor

526
00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:36,860
inside of a Mexican chassis that's funny

527
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:40,430
so uh yeah they the German involvement

528
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:43,490
in in Mexico was astounding I had

529
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:46,250
absolutely no idea about that well I

530
00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:48,110
didn't either you know when I well I

531
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:49,790
mean I'm thinking in particular Felix

532
00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:52,610
Sommerfeld and Arnold's crumb Heller

533
00:25:59,200 --> 00:25:56,420
these were German agents who reported to

534
00:26:02,470 --> 00:25:59,210
the Ambassador Minh ambassador who were

535
00:26:05,860 --> 00:26:02,480
very close to Madero and actually I was

536
00:26:08,980 --> 00:26:05,870
I was enormously helped because in 2012

537
00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:08,990
Harry Bert von foilage brought out a

538
00:26:14,530 --> 00:26:11,600
book called in plain sight about Felix

539
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:14,540
Sommerfeld that went into farm were more

540
00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:16,640
most most historians of the revolution

541
00:26:21,460 --> 00:26:18,140
were aware of the role of felix

542
00:26:24,580 --> 00:26:21,470
Sommerfeld but Harry Harry Bert von

543
00:26:26,410 --> 00:26:24,590
foilage really really went in in great

544
00:26:29,620 --> 00:26:26,420
detail would really did his research and

545
00:26:31,390 --> 00:26:29,630
and von frey lunches german so of course

546
00:26:34,060 --> 00:26:31,400
he speaks German and can read German

547
00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:34,070
which is a great impediment to most

548
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:36,380
people who try to research that field

549
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:38,210
because they run into German documents

550
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:40,710
and can't read them but he could and

551
00:26:44,990 --> 00:26:43,049
he also has a background as it has a

552
00:26:48,010 --> 00:26:45,000
master's degree in Latin American

553
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:48,020
history so he went into the archives and

554
00:26:52,669 --> 00:26:50,490
just pulled out the most magnificent

555
00:26:55,399 --> 00:26:52,679
book and I got my hands on that just in

556
00:26:58,010 --> 00:26:55,409
time as I was writing my madera book so

557
00:26:59,899 --> 00:26:58,020
that just opened a lot of doors for me

558
00:27:02,120 --> 00:26:59,909
and understanding what was going on and

559
00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:02,130
many of your listeners may be familiar

560
00:27:06,860 --> 00:27:04,289
with Arnold crumb Heller he's very well

561
00:27:08,570 --> 00:27:06,870
known in German and in Spanish for

562
00:27:11,060 --> 00:27:08,580
esoteric works published in the first

563
00:27:13,850 --> 00:27:11,070
part of the 20th century interesting i I

564
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:13,860
don't know I haven't had too much

565
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:16,710
knowledge of how many spanish or

566
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:19,260
hispanic listeners we have but we do

567
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:21,210
have a number of german-speaking

568
00:27:26,779 --> 00:27:24,450
listeners so they obviously also speak

569
00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:26,789
English otherwise they'd been not

570
00:27:35,060 --> 00:27:31,860
listening to us I guess since since

571
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:35,070
we've had the Santa birthday on I think

572
00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:38,210
maybe we've gained some spanish-speaking

573
00:27:43,340 --> 00:27:41,220
listeners that was a really good show by

574
00:27:45,919 --> 00:27:43,350
the way I i I'm often asked that

575
00:27:48,409 --> 00:27:45,929
question you know what what's the

576
00:27:49,789 --> 00:27:48,419
relation was spiritism and I mean I knew

577
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:49,799
that there was no relationship but I

578
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:51,450
really couldn't have said much about it

579
00:27:55,970 --> 00:27:53,760
so I was absolutely fascinated to listen

580
00:27:58,010 --> 00:27:55,980
to Professor chestnut he he really knows

581
00:28:02,060 --> 00:27:58,020
his stuff he's really very interesting

582
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:02,070
oh there I was really surprised as well

583
00:28:07,820 --> 00:28:04,770
I did not think it was going to be that

584
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:07,830
great a topic but he was extremely

585
00:28:13,639 --> 00:28:10,559
impressive and as I've mentioned it work

586
00:28:16,159 --> 00:28:13,649
today a lot of the topics that have been

587
00:28:18,740 --> 00:28:16,169
written on such as yours or are esoteric

588
00:28:20,659 --> 00:28:18,750
and you know your average person these

589
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:20,669
are scoffing or laughing at it one or

590
00:28:25,310 --> 00:28:23,039
the other but the people that write

591
00:28:27,950 --> 00:28:25,320
these books are so well-read and so

592
00:28:29,330 --> 00:28:27,960
well-spoken that you I keep telling

593
00:28:32,269 --> 00:28:29,340
people you have to take this seriously

594
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:32,279
because these are not silly individuals

595
00:28:35,690 --> 00:28:33,840
are right about them and it's very

596
00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:35,700
interesting topics well you know I'm

597
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:37,110
really glad you mentioned that because

598
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:39,690
this I think this is the reason why I

599
00:28:44,899 --> 00:28:41,580
mean if you stop and think about it the

600
00:28:47,180 --> 00:28:44,909
leader of this transformative episode in

601
00:28:49,340 --> 00:28:47,190
Mexican history the 1910 revolution

602
00:28:53,029 --> 00:28:49,350
which is the first major revolution of

603
00:28:54,830 --> 00:28:53,039
the 20th century wrote the book and you

604
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:54,840
know United States

605
00:28:59,300 --> 00:28:56,730
we share nearly 2,000 mile border with

606
00:29:00,890 --> 00:28:59,310
Mexico and we have many many many people

607
00:29:02,570 --> 00:29:00,900
studying the mexican revolution in the

608
00:29:05,030 --> 00:29:02,580
united states i mean almost every major

609
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:05,040
university has a course on Mexican

610
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:07,440
history or Latin American history and I

611
00:29:11,390 --> 00:29:09,570
had never been translating the book now

612
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:11,400
a hundred years the book had never been

613
00:29:16,940 --> 00:29:14,970
translated so so so like why why is that

614
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:16,950
you know and that's I think that's the

615
00:29:22,130 --> 00:29:18,810
answer to it is that the people who did

616
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:22,140
know that Maduro was a Spiritist we're

617
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:24,510
just very quick to dismiss ensayo yes

618
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:26,970
but they wouldn't actually tell you what

619
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:29,130
spiritism was or where it came from or

620
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:31,410
what its literature was they had no

621
00:29:35,630 --> 00:29:33,810
context for it I mean that said I mean I

622
00:29:38,260 --> 00:29:35,640
also must say I although I'm the first

623
00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:38,270
person to translate it that I know of I

624
00:29:44,180 --> 00:29:42,000
was able to build my my my own argument

625
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:44,190
my own research on there there's a

626
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:47,610
handful of Mexican historians who have

627
00:29:52,970 --> 00:29:49,410
written seriously about the subject

628
00:29:55,340 --> 00:29:52,980
their books are hard to find but they're

629
00:29:57,770 --> 00:29:55,350
really important and good books and they

630
00:30:00,860 --> 00:29:57,780
really they were like a foundation for

631
00:30:03,170 --> 00:30:00,870
me to build my book on yo liat or toledo

632
00:30:06,020 --> 00:30:03,180
she wrote ella spirit is most elusive

633
00:30:07,910 --> 00:30:06,030
francisco madero this was heavily

634
00:30:09,890 --> 00:30:07,920
researched in the National Archives this

635
00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:09,900
was her doctoral thesis she turned it in

636
00:30:15,310 --> 00:30:12,720
for books wonderful bucket on kindle you

637
00:30:17,810 --> 00:30:15,320
can get it on kindle yo leotard talero

638
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:17,820
manuel guerra de luna is another

639
00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:20,730
alejandro for SAS and really kick or

640
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:23,070
i'll say there are mexicans you've

641
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:25,290
written about it but i think it's a very

642
00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:28,410
difficult subject and I was also really

643
00:30:33,410 --> 00:30:31,380
helped i was very surprised to find you

644
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:33,420
know i waited through all the allan

645
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:34,890
kardec books and the history of

646
00:30:38,750 --> 00:30:37,200
spiritualism books and I a non Madame

647
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:38,760
Blavatsky and I read all these things I

648
00:30:44,390 --> 00:30:41,370
could read but I was delighted to find

649
00:30:47,420 --> 00:30:44,400
that they're over the last decade law or

650
00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:47,430
less let's say last 15 years maybe last

651
00:30:53,180 --> 00:30:51,150
20 years a number of of people you know

652
00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:53,190
the profile similar to Professor

653
00:30:57,860 --> 00:30:55,080
chestnut you know their professors of

654
00:30:59,870 --> 00:30:57,870
religion professors of history or

655
00:31:02,510 --> 00:30:59,880
professors of history or philosophy or

656
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:02,520
something you know very distinguished

657
00:31:07,220 --> 00:31:05,010
academics have started to take these

658
00:31:08,210 --> 00:31:07,230
things seriously which again isn't to

659
00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:08,220
say oh let's go

660
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:10,049
even it or let's make fun of it but to

661
00:31:14,060 --> 00:31:11,450
just say well it was what it was

662
00:31:16,730 --> 00:31:14,070
important people believed in it where

663
00:31:18,289 --> 00:31:16,740
did they get these ideas why did they

664
00:31:19,940 --> 00:31:18,299
think this what was the literature you

665
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,950
know like let's look at the context

666
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:22,080
let's look at the history so you know

667
00:31:26,299 --> 00:31:24,510
I'm not trying to tell anybody all you

668
00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:26,309
must believe what Francisco Madero

669
00:31:29,779 --> 00:31:28,350
believed I'm simply saying well this is

670
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:29,789
what he believed and this is where it

671
00:31:36,289 --> 00:31:32,880
came from and this is the context so um

672
00:31:39,860 --> 00:31:36,299
but it bit even still it's very hard why

673
00:31:43,610 --> 00:31:39,870
I don't to tell you right you know well

674
00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:43,620
we had shattered reality here we have a

675
00:31:50,510 --> 00:31:47,220
very strict feelings about beliefs in a

676
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:50,520
certain sense we try not to talk so much

677
00:31:57,529 --> 00:31:53,730
about beliefs but rather what you've had

678
00:32:01,430 --> 00:31:57,539
what you experience because apparently

679
00:32:04,130 --> 00:32:01,440
these people experienced things and what

680
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:04,140
they their philosophy was based on what

681
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:08,130
they experienced rather than a blind

682
00:32:13,549 --> 00:32:10,650
belief because somebody told them that

683
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:13,559
such and such was the doctrine but I

684
00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:16,080
think where people find it difficult is

685
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:19,230
when certainly a belief or religion is

686
00:32:22,490 --> 00:32:21,330
one thing and they'll respect that but

687
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:22,500
when you say something that I've

688
00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:25,919
channeled my younger brother and who is

689
00:32:30,890 --> 00:32:28,260
passed on and it is he who is now

690
00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:30,900
directing my actions that's when you

691
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:32,700
start to lose people believing it

692
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:35,039
because most people do not experience

693
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:37,919
that and since they don't experience how

694
00:32:43,370 --> 00:32:40,530
could you experience it so if it isn't

695
00:32:45,710 --> 00:32:43,380
true for them it's why should it be true

696
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:45,720
for you and it's the same with UFOs I

697
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:48,210
mean people just seen them totally but I

698
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:49,890
mean that's the difference between

699
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:52,679
seeing and believing and for example

700
00:32:58,430 --> 00:32:55,140
this man probably did channel as younger

701
00:33:00,860 --> 00:32:58,440
brother who it seems silly to me because

702
00:33:02,450 --> 00:33:00,870
I've never channeled anybody but you

703
00:33:04,750 --> 00:33:02,460
know to this man it took it very

704
00:33:06,980 --> 00:33:04,760
seriously and it shaped his life

705
00:33:09,649 --> 00:33:06,990
absolutely well that was certainly a

706
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:09,659
case with Madero that he was medium and

707
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:12,330
he trained himself to channel by writing

708
00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:14,250
and he started with his younger brother

709
00:33:19,510 --> 00:33:16,200
and then he ended up getting other

710
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:19,520
spirits who we know from

711
00:33:23,710 --> 00:33:21,440
his mediumistic notebooks which have

712
00:33:26,740 --> 00:33:23,720
been preserved they've been transcribed

713
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:26,750
and published in Spanish there were

714
00:33:31,510 --> 00:33:28,910
spirits that he was channeling or or or

715
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:31,520
let's say his perception apparently was

716
00:33:36,250 --> 00:33:34,330
that he was channeling these birds I'm

717
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:36,260
telling him how to proceed with his

718
00:33:43,210 --> 00:33:39,530
political campaign how to proceed with

719
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:43,220
the revolution itself and and then

720
00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:44,810
telling a man you will write this peer

721
00:33:51,580 --> 00:33:48,470
does manual yeah so yeah a lot of people

722
00:33:53,890 --> 00:33:51,590
when that comes up you know no for them

723
00:33:56,860 --> 00:33:53,900
meideros crazy there's nothing more to

724
00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:56,870
say and and what I find so interesting

725
00:34:01,180 --> 00:33:59,600
is if you can just get past you having

726
00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:01,190
to conclude I don't I don't think you

727
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:03,350
have I don't I never felt I needed to

728
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:06,110
conclude one thing or the other that I

729
00:34:10,750 --> 00:34:07,610
could just simply go in and say well

730
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:10,760
okay where did he get these ideas who

731
00:34:15,490 --> 00:34:12,890
were other people that he was with that

732
00:34:17,740 --> 00:34:15,500
also have these ideas and I had an

733
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:17,750
enormous benefit from from this

734
00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:20,810
literature i just mentioned but also i

735
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:23,750
was able to consult his personal library

736
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:27,200
nice announces that's available to the

737
00:34:30,970 --> 00:34:29,210
public it said you know any researcher

738
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:30,980
King go there it's at the centro de

739
00:34:36,190 --> 00:34:33,530
estudios de la historia de mexico here

740
00:34:38,980 --> 00:34:36,200
in mexico city but it's only been a few

741
00:34:40,990 --> 00:34:38,990
years that that's been available the

742
00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:41,000
catalog is online so you can check it

743
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:43,220
out but it was really an amazing thing

744
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:46,159
to go and go through all his books and

745
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:49,010
see what was he reading and you know

746
00:34:54,340 --> 00:34:51,919
what was inscribed to him and where had

747
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:54,350
he made notes and what appeared what did

748
00:35:00,610 --> 00:34:57,650
he site in the Spiritist manual that was

749
00:35:02,770 --> 00:35:00,620
also really a revelation a lot of Hindu

750
00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:02,780
philosophy came into the spiritus manual

751
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:04,520
and we could see that in his library at

752
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:07,040
the Bhagavad Gita he had the book of

753
00:35:13,300 --> 00:35:09,680
swami vivekananda he had a lot of

754
00:35:15,010 --> 00:35:13,310
various a text wow yeah I need you know

755
00:35:16,540 --> 00:35:15,020
I was go so you mentioned Arthur Conan

756
00:35:18,850 --> 00:35:16,550
Doyle before there's a show on

757
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:18,860
television Houdini and Doyle I don't

758
00:35:24,940 --> 00:35:21,890
know if you've seen it but I Houdini and

759
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:24,950
Doyle were contemporaries and obviously

760
00:35:29,650 --> 00:35:26,690
this is fictional but there they play

761
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:29,660
two characters where Houdini's a skeptic

762
00:35:33,130 --> 00:35:32,240
and Doyle is a believer and last night's

763
00:35:36,269 --> 00:35:33,140
episode

764
00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:36,279
had Thomas Edison on Wow Thomas Thomas

765
00:35:41,980 --> 00:35:39,680
Edison had tried to invent a necro phone

766
00:35:45,009 --> 00:35:41,990
yeah where he communicated through

767
00:35:48,759 --> 00:35:45,019
various electromagnetic waves with the

768
00:35:52,299 --> 00:35:48,769
dead and now there was a man who had

769
00:35:55,210 --> 00:35:52,309
belief and then tried to prove it which

770
00:35:57,849 --> 00:35:55,220
sometimes can be really hard yeah well

771
00:35:59,650 --> 00:35:57,859
it is it is a an outgrowth of the

772
00:36:01,839 --> 00:35:59,660
spiritual enjoyment I think that he

773
00:36:05,140 --> 00:36:01,849
Thomas Edison we don't think of him in

774
00:36:07,150 --> 00:36:05,150
that fashion and right here you know in

775
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:07,160
the United States we had Nancy Reagan

776
00:36:12,220 --> 00:36:09,920
who was it consulting astrologist and

777
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:12,230
and some people said that she was kind

778
00:36:15,819 --> 00:36:13,609
of running things now I don't know if

779
00:36:19,329 --> 00:36:15,829
that's true or not and I don't care but

780
00:36:21,069 --> 00:36:19,339
it is a fact of American history when

781
00:36:23,079 --> 00:36:21,079
people sort of think that Americans

782
00:36:26,890 --> 00:36:23,089
don't do this sort of thing while there

783
00:36:31,509 --> 00:36:26,900
sadly mistaken um but to bring back a

784
00:36:34,660 --> 00:36:31,519
hour talk to Latin America and to the

785
00:36:39,460 --> 00:36:34,670
Spiritist movement you had mentioned um

786
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:39,470
our ego and won the deal John of God to

787
00:36:43,210 --> 00:36:41,119
most people listening to this and

788
00:36:46,450 --> 00:36:43,220
they're both people that I have been

789
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:46,460
very much interested in and on one of

790
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:48,710
our one of our guest is also a big fan

791
00:36:54,490 --> 00:36:51,410
of Adi go thats David B Edney is very

792
00:36:57,249 --> 00:36:54,500
positive of Adi go as a historical

793
00:37:00,819 --> 00:36:57,259
figure and an impressive character what

794
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:00,829
is the relationship between spiritism

795
00:37:06,490 --> 00:37:04,690
and healing particularly psychic surgery

796
00:37:09,730 --> 00:37:06,500
yeah that's a really interesting

797
00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:09,740
question on from what I could see

798
00:37:18,370 --> 00:37:14,000
maduros concepts of healing were hands

799
00:37:20,799 --> 00:37:18,380
on you know just hands on healing

800
00:37:23,349 --> 00:37:20,809
hypnotism he was really interested in

801
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:23,359
hypnotism got many books of French hip

802
00:37:27,309 --> 00:37:25,250
French books on hypnotism murders the

803
00:37:31,029 --> 00:37:27,319
library homeopathy he was also

804
00:37:36,370 --> 00:37:31,039
practicing homeopathy but the psychic

805
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,380
surgery Madero did not do that said I am

806
00:37:41,799 --> 00:37:38,480
aware that there are a lot of spertus in

807
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:41,809
the philippines in brazil that do the

808
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:44,490
spirit of the psychic surgery and

809
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:46,320
so that was actually one of the things

810
00:37:51,020 --> 00:37:48,240
that was really fun and researching this

811
00:37:52,940 --> 00:37:51,030
book was just to give it context I was

812
00:37:55,730 --> 00:37:52,950
kind of reading in to see what was there

813
00:37:57,500 --> 00:37:55,740
in Mexico of that and the two great

814
00:38:00,320 --> 00:37:57,510
figure this there's three great figures

815
00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:00,330
that come forth that I don't think

816
00:38:04,850 --> 00:38:02,880
really had anything much to do with

817
00:38:07,370 --> 00:38:04,860
Madero there's a very incidental thing

818
00:38:09,530 --> 00:38:07,380
which I'll mention in a moment but and

819
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:09,540
that would be Nino Fidencio who died in

820
00:38:14,859 --> 00:38:12,480
1938 and he's a revered figure among

821
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:14,869
many people in the north and in Texas

822
00:38:19,070 --> 00:38:17,970
today set were rare which some of you

823
00:38:21,590 --> 00:38:19,080
may have heard of because she's the

824
00:38:24,109 --> 00:38:21,600
subject of Luis Alberto or die as novel

825
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:24,119
the hummingbirds daughter now she was

826
00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:27,330
his great hand and she was from the

827
00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:29,550
north of Mexico and ended up in Arizona

828
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:34,440
also Texas and died very young and the

829
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:36,510
other one is dunya pachita who was

830
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:40,170
active up to the 1970s so there are some

831
00:38:45,220 --> 00:38:42,450
well-known psychic surgeons in Mexico

832
00:38:47,870 --> 00:38:45,230
but they weren't necessarily spiritus

833
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:47,880
the connection with Nino feelings he was

834
00:38:51,590 --> 00:38:49,530
really interesting and this is something

835
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:51,600
I hope I don't think it's going to be me

836
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:54,330
but I hope someone will will do the

837
00:39:01,849 --> 00:38:58,050
research here Nino Fidencio was a worker

838
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:01,859
on a ranch a very humble person and he

839
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:05,010
was encouraged by a Spiritist whose name

840
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:07,730
was Te'o little von ver niche a german

841
00:39:13,550 --> 00:39:10,310
mexican who was a friend of medeiros

842
00:39:17,630 --> 00:39:13,560
they were both masons and they were both

843
00:39:21,099 --> 00:39:17,640
spiritists and teodoro von ver niche was

844
00:39:23,870 --> 00:39:21,109
kind of a mentor to Nino Fidencio so

845
00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:23,880
Nene ophidians who did not consider

846
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:26,040
himself Spiritist but he was a medium

847
00:39:31,460 --> 00:39:29,010
mystic healer and later president

848
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:31,470
aaliyah sky is blue taco elías calles

849
00:39:36,530 --> 00:39:33,810
who was a couple of presidencies after

850
00:39:39,380 --> 00:39:36,540
Madero he ended up going to Nino

851
00:39:41,150 --> 00:39:39,390
Fidencio and he was also Caillou's was a

852
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:41,160
Spiritist so there's a lot of

853
00:39:45,710 --> 00:39:43,170
interesting little connections to

854
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:45,720
explore is just just for the record

855
00:39:51,170 --> 00:39:48,330
because I really want to know would you

856
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:51,180
consider a John of God or our ego

857
00:39:57,470 --> 00:39:54,930
spiritists my understanding is that they

858
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:57,480
are that there are spiritists healers

859
00:40:00,690 --> 00:39:58,000
that's why

860
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:00,700
understanding okay I'll just I hadn't

861
00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:03,760
thought of it in quite that way but I

862
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:05,380
don't know that it's not true so I was

863
00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:07,330
kind of being interested in both of

864
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:09,910
those persons john of god of course is

865
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:12,370
still alive to my knowledge and odd ego

866
00:40:21,090 --> 00:40:16,480
has passed away about a hundred years

867
00:40:23,490 --> 00:40:21,100
ago I'm guessing and he he was supported

868
00:40:26,190 --> 00:40:23,500
purportedly channeling dr. Fritze as I

869
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:26,200
recall it who was purportedly also a

870
00:40:31,770 --> 00:40:29,770
German doctor Philippines as well I

871
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:31,780
think there's a very strong spiritus

872
00:40:36,420 --> 00:40:34,510
psychic healing saying where this is

873
00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:36,430
really interesting to me about Daniel

874
00:40:43,860 --> 00:40:39,730
pachita who as I say was active up into

875
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:43,870
the 70s was that um a lot of people my

876
00:40:51,060 --> 00:40:47,710
age I'm in my 50s and people my age and

877
00:40:53,430 --> 00:40:51,070
a little bit older remember being in the

878
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:53,440
room when she was I mean I'm just

879
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:54,850
surprised how many people have said oh

880
00:40:58,650 --> 00:40:56,530
you know they'll read my book and

881
00:41:00,900 --> 00:40:58,660
they'll say things like I was there when

882
00:41:04,410 --> 00:41:00,910
she operated on so-and-so or they'll say

883
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:04,420
to me oh she cured my grandmother it's

884
00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:06,400
been really interesting and then also

885
00:41:09,450 --> 00:41:07,870
brings me back about what we're talking

886
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:09,460
about earlier of how many people just

887
00:41:14,610 --> 00:41:12,850
you know they kind of shut the shut off

888
00:41:16,290 --> 00:41:14,620
their mind at the mere mention of this

889
00:41:17,820 --> 00:41:16,300
stuff it's just they're just like no

890
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:17,830
this is crazy I don't want to hear about

891
00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:20,650
it but when i find often times is that

892
00:41:26,970 --> 00:41:24,190
there are people who act like they're

893
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:26,980
not interested or it's ridiculous but

894
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:30,490
then in private they'll tell me things

895
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:33,850
like she cured my grandmother or i was

896
00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:36,210
there when she operated and you know I

897
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:39,190
stuff like that so I find that really

898
00:41:43,110 --> 00:41:41,410
interesting well like people people are

899
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:43,120
there I think people know that they're

900
00:41:48,420 --> 00:41:45,130
debunkers out there that are just gonna

901
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:48,430
rip them to shreds and humiliate them

902
00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:51,490
and and they don't want to they don't

903
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:53,020
want to run that risk and I can

904
00:41:58,680 --> 00:41:55,570
understand that well we here at

905
00:42:01,370 --> 00:41:58,690
shattered reality I like to look at the

906
00:42:04,170 --> 00:42:01,380
idea of scientism that is science

907
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:04,180
materialistic science as a religion in

908
00:42:09,660 --> 00:42:07,330
itself and that maybe those people might

909
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:09,670
be on the wrong path because they don't

910
00:42:14,340 --> 00:42:11,440
actually give

911
00:42:17,370 --> 00:42:14,350
true science which is an open-minded

912
00:42:21,030 --> 00:42:17,380
approach to things that might be going

913
00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:21,040
on and looking at such things so we here

914
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:24,760
at shattered reality try to burst a few

915
00:42:30,270 --> 00:42:27,070
bubbles in that direction and i will add

916
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:30,280
to that note that being a person who

917
00:42:37,470 --> 00:42:33,330
reads cards and palms and so forth uh

918
00:42:39,570 --> 00:42:37,480
for part of the time of my life I find

919
00:42:41,370 --> 00:42:39,580
that people so I don't believe in that I

920
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:41,380
don't believe in that do you want to eat

921
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:44,410
my palm you know you want to read my

922
00:42:49,770 --> 00:42:48,010
palm like like I'm dying to but I don't

923
00:42:55,460 --> 00:42:49,780
believe in that but maybe you want to

924
00:43:00,360 --> 00:42:58,350
yeah but I think we're a really

925
00:43:02,130 --> 00:43:00,370
interesting moment because there's a

926
00:43:03,870 --> 00:43:02,140
book that just came out that I just I

927
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:03,880
just reviewed it with it with a long

928
00:43:07,740 --> 00:43:06,400
essay about my book in reviewing this

929
00:43:09,990 --> 00:43:07,750
book and I hope this is someone you

930
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:10,000
might have on your show it's jeffrey cry

931
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:13,330
Paul oh yes he's a fascinating fellow as

932
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:15,370
a matter of fact I just saw him at the

933
00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:19,570
sse Oh fabulous well so I don't have to

934
00:43:23,850 --> 00:43:20,830
tell you about it it's a fact it's

935
00:43:25,980 --> 00:43:23,860
called the supernatural and it's gel or

936
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:25,990
listeners anyway because they may not

937
00:43:30,540 --> 00:43:27,970
know I'm sure listeners have all heard

938
00:43:34,740 --> 00:43:30,550
of whitley strieber who wrote communion

939
00:43:36,750 --> 00:43:34,750
and all those books about um yeah alien

940
00:43:39,210 --> 00:43:36,760
Clemson his perception of what may or

941
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:39,220
may not have been alien objection but

942
00:43:45,420 --> 00:43:41,710
Jeffrey cry Paul is a very distinguished

943
00:43:47,820 --> 00:43:45,430
academic a historian of religion and he

944
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:47,830
took whitley strieber book communion as

945
00:43:52,830 --> 00:43:50,050
a mystical texts and it's an absolutely

946
00:43:56,190 --> 00:43:52,840
fascinating book written by both of them

947
00:43:59,400 --> 00:43:56,200
inner inner changing chapters and I

948
00:44:02,070 --> 00:43:59,410
really struck a note with me because I

949
00:44:05,340 --> 00:44:02,080
encountered a mystical texts and that

950
00:44:09,090 --> 00:44:05,350
was medeiros Berta's manual and my way

951
00:44:12,630 --> 00:44:09,100
of addressing that text and addressing

952
00:44:14,850 --> 00:44:12,640
readers who you know and bringing

953
00:44:16,770 --> 00:44:14,860
readers into considering what you know

954
00:44:19,470 --> 00:44:16,780
what implications this might have in

955
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:19,480
thinking about not only reality but the

956
00:44:24,420 --> 00:44:22,810
revolution itself that you know the at

957
00:44:25,460 --> 00:44:24,430
the main leader of the revolution wrote

958
00:44:28,590 --> 00:44:25,470
this

959
00:44:32,070 --> 00:44:28,600
was what would cry Paul calls the

960
00:44:34,260 --> 00:44:32,080
Kantian cut and I I didn't use that term

961
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:34,270
but basically what it is is to say look

962
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:37,690
our brain is limited and what it can

963
00:44:43,050 --> 00:44:40,510
perceive you know we take vibrations and

964
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:43,060
turn them into perceptions of color or

965
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:46,210
sound or exactly but we're limited in

966
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:48,640
what we actually perceive and once you

967
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:50,800
understand that which is just a sort of

968
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:54,010
obvious commonsensical conclusion you

969
00:44:58,110 --> 00:44:56,290
have to realize well it could well be

970
00:45:00,540 --> 00:44:58,120
that there are a lot of things I just

971
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:00,550
cannot perceive so it's really

972
00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:03,610
ridiculous to say well I'm only believe

973
00:45:07,890 --> 00:45:05,710
what I can see or hear it's not like I

974
00:45:10,140 --> 00:45:07,900
which is what oftentimes people who buy

975
00:45:12,930 --> 00:45:10,150
into scientism do they say if I don't if

976
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:12,940
I can't see it it doesn't exist oh like

977
00:45:17,250 --> 00:45:15,730
excuse me that's pretty ridiculous you

978
00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:17,260
know because of course there's

979
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:19,390
ultraviolet and there's gamma rays and

980
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:20,770
there's microwaves and you can't see

981
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:22,570
those things either but Tommy they don't

982
00:45:27,630 --> 00:45:25,330
exist wait you know so so I think I

983
00:45:29,610 --> 00:45:27,640
think this is such a wonderful book the

984
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:29,620
supernatural bike rifle and whit least

985
00:45:34,350 --> 00:45:32,110
riveted it kind of opens up thinking

986
00:45:37,740 --> 00:45:34,360
about these subjects for people who

987
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:37,750
otherwise might not just psychologically

988
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:39,730
or emotionally or intellectually be able

989
00:45:43,980 --> 00:45:42,250
to otherwise because they haven't

990
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:43,990
experienced things I mean I understand

991
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:44,890
what you're saying that if you've

992
00:45:50,610 --> 00:45:47,290
experienced something if you say well

993
00:45:51,630 --> 00:45:50,620
you know I channeled so-and-so didn't if

994
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:51,640
somebody else says that you're more

995
00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:53,110
likely to believe it but if you haven't

996
00:45:57,030 --> 00:45:55,420
you can't yours like know that person

997
00:45:58,920 --> 00:45:57,040
must be nuts because I haven't

998
00:46:01,110 --> 00:45:58,930
experienced that but well anyway the

999
00:46:06,270 --> 00:46:01,120
thing is that i think the way cry paul

1000
00:46:07,890 --> 00:46:06,280
presents it it's an invitation for many

1001
00:46:10,260 --> 00:46:07,900
people who wouldn't otherwise to

1002
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:10,270
consider these things and in considering

1003
00:46:14,130 --> 00:46:12,070
these things you don't necessarily have

1004
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:14,140
to believe or not believe you can simply

1005
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:16,720
consider you look at context you look at

1006
00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:18,370
history you look at compare and contrast

1007
00:46:25,950 --> 00:46:21,910
and suddenly you can learn so much

1008
00:46:27,810 --> 00:46:25,960
without necessarily saying um i believe

1009
00:46:30,090 --> 00:46:27,820
this or i believe that i don't have to

1010
00:46:32,310 --> 00:46:30,100
say I believe maduro was channeling his

1011
00:46:34,410 --> 00:46:32,320
brother I don't know I wasn't there I

1012
00:46:35,850 --> 00:46:34,420
wasn't in his head what do I know but I

1013
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:35,860
can say well it looks like that's what

1014
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:38,170
he apparently believed and there

1015
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:39,490
or we can come to some really

1016
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:42,730
interesting conclusions about political

1017
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:44,530
action and the revolution that otherwise

1018
00:46:49,020 --> 00:46:46,740
would have been completely opaque to us

1019
00:46:52,650 --> 00:46:49,030
well how has this affected you

1020
00:46:54,870 --> 00:46:52,660
personally do you feel like you've been

1021
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:54,880
more open to supernatural or had you

1022
00:47:01,470 --> 00:46:58,330
been before you started researching this

1023
00:47:04,950 --> 00:47:01,480
man um that's really interesting

1024
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:04,960
question i think i think i just made me

1025
00:47:12,060 --> 00:47:09,370
really humble in the sense that I you

1026
00:47:14,580 --> 00:47:12,070
know I have the confidence to tackle

1027
00:47:16,020 --> 00:47:14,590
whatever subject I want but I'm humble

1028
00:47:18,450 --> 00:47:16,030
about what I might actually conclude

1029
00:47:21,180 --> 00:47:18,460
from it and the idea that there might be

1030
00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:21,190
more that I don't understand so you know

1031
00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:22,780
I've tried to bring forth as a

1032
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:26,020
translator is a writer something new or

1033
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:28,450
or or build upon that Mexican historians

1034
00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:30,010
who previously written about it you know

1035
00:47:34,770 --> 00:47:32,160
I've added to that and builds upon it

1036
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:34,780
and brought something new that I think

1037
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:36,850
really does show us something very

1038
00:47:40,980 --> 00:47:38,710
different about the mexican revolution

1039
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:40,990
but i think that's always going to be

1040
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:42,730
true that there's this other level and

1041
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:44,800
and Ashley first i wanted to mention i

1042
00:47:52,290 --> 00:47:49,090
found your blog through the blogroll I

1043
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:52,300
Frank DeMarco oh yes yes I know Frank

1044
00:47:57,690 --> 00:47:54,970
and what's really amazing to me is I I

1045
00:48:00,060 --> 00:47:57,700
was reading his recent blog posts and

1046
00:48:01,620 --> 00:48:00,070
you know he's been for people who are

1047
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:01,630
not familiar with Frank DeMarco he's

1048
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:05,710
been channeling Rita and earn it his

1049
00:48:09,540 --> 00:48:07,450
friend Rita who's passed on who was a

1050
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:09,550
fine no Rita too yeah I met reader I

1051
00:48:13,350 --> 00:48:11,770
wouldn't say I knew her because it was

1052
00:48:15,330 --> 00:48:13,360
just an acquaintance but what a

1053
00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:15,340
wonderful woman well here's what's

1054
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:16,900
really interesting to me about it and

1055
00:48:20,130 --> 00:48:18,640
I'm not trying to say for sure that's

1056
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:20,140
what's happening or threat or it's wrong

1057
00:48:24,750 --> 00:48:22,000
i mean i don't know i'm not in Frank's

1058
00:48:26,370 --> 00:48:24,760
head I didn't know Rita I don't know but

1059
00:48:29,010 --> 00:48:26,380
here's what's really interesting to me

1060
00:48:32,460 --> 00:48:29,020
in these blog posts he's bringing

1061
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:32,470
through a far more complex model or

1062
00:48:38,490 --> 00:48:36,610
paradigm of what is the afterlife and

1063
00:48:41,460 --> 00:48:38,500
what is reincarnation then what we've

1064
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:41,470
seen before and so what I mean to say

1065
00:48:45,150 --> 00:48:43,510
with those is simply that there's always

1066
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:45,160
another level there's always there are

1067
00:48:48,660 --> 00:48:47,050
always new questions there's always

1068
00:48:50,820 --> 00:48:48,670
something that's going to be revealed

1069
00:48:51,810 --> 00:48:50,830
that we didn't know before so how we

1070
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:51,820
think about any

1071
00:48:55,290 --> 00:48:53,710
thing whether it's reincarnation or

1072
00:48:59,490 --> 00:48:55,300
whether it's the mexican revolution or

1073
00:49:01,380 --> 00:48:59,500
the roman empire or you know the planets

1074
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:01,390
of the solar system or you know or how

1075
00:49:05,340 --> 00:49:02,890
dogs think whatever you want there's

1076
00:49:08,340 --> 00:49:05,350
gotta be some new level and and it's

1077
00:49:09,930 --> 00:49:08,350
just ridiculous to think that that you

1078
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:09,940
know i'm going to understand everything

1079
00:49:14,970 --> 00:49:12,490
right now in 2016 all I can do is

1080
00:49:17,850 --> 00:49:14,980
understand it as best I can and is

1081
00:49:20,190 --> 00:49:17,860
explain it as best I can but then

1082
00:49:22,260 --> 00:49:20,200
someone will build on my work and

1083
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:22,270
someone may write something else about

1084
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:24,250
Francisco Madero in spiritism in the

1085
00:49:31,590 --> 00:49:28,050
revolution so it just kind of rolls on

1086
00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:31,600
because yeah it does see him what I

1087
00:49:36,060 --> 00:49:35,110
would ask you is that and and this I

1088
00:49:38,250 --> 00:49:36,070
don't want this to sound like a

1089
00:49:41,790 --> 00:49:38,260
criticism criticism because it really is

1090
00:49:45,410 --> 00:49:41,800
not a criticism but you seem to feel as

1091
00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:45,420
though maybe because other people have

1092
00:49:49,860 --> 00:49:47,710
encouraged you in this way that you need

1093
00:49:52,890 --> 00:49:49,870
to draw conclusions you have several

1094
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:52,900
times say said that I don't really want

1095
00:49:56,750 --> 00:49:54,970
to draw a conclusion well I can only say

1096
00:50:01,080 --> 00:49:56,760
to you that I think you're a fabulous

1097
00:50:03,420 --> 00:50:01,090
researcher I read your book with really

1098
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:03,430
with rapt attention and you do have to

1099
00:50:07,860 --> 00:50:05,170
pay attention to your book because it is

1100
00:50:10,770 --> 00:50:07,870
so meticulous and it could take you down

1101
00:50:12,210 --> 00:50:10,780
so many different alleys but who is it

1102
00:50:14,190 --> 00:50:12,220
that told you you had to draw a

1103
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:14,200
conclusion because you keep saying I

1104
00:50:18,270 --> 00:50:15,730
don't have to draw a conclusion when

1105
00:50:20,100 --> 00:50:18,280
it's an Cade and I would never never ask

1106
00:50:22,260 --> 00:50:20,110
you to draw such a conclusion well I

1107
00:50:24,270 --> 00:50:22,270
often when I present the book I get

1108
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:24,280
people who insist that I tell them

1109
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:26,770
whether I believe that he was actually

1110
00:50:30,810 --> 00:50:28,690
channeling this person or if I believe

1111
00:50:32,490 --> 00:50:30,820
in this or believing that I do draw a

1112
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:32,500
conclusion though and I do ask the

1113
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:35,050
reader to to come to a certain point and

1114
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:38,050
that is to acknowledge that he was in

1115
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:41,710
fact as ghosts and what that meant what

1116
00:50:48,240 --> 00:50:44,050
what the context of that was and that

1117
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:48,250
although you know the reader may or may

1118
00:50:53,820 --> 00:50:51,040
not believe in those ideas that madera

1119
00:50:55,950 --> 00:50:53,830
was a very intelligent person with a lot

1120
00:50:58,710 --> 00:50:55,960
of capabilities and his government

1121
00:51:01,170 --> 00:50:58,720
didn't last it was overthrown but I

1122
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:01,180
think in any revolution the new

1123
00:51:04,190 --> 00:51:02,770
government is going to be weak by

1124
00:51:07,430 --> 00:51:04,200
definition or there wouldn't have been a

1125
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:07,440
evolution so so they're often counter

1126
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:09,810
revolutions that come in right away so

1127
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:12,210
the fact that his government didn't last

1128
00:51:18,349 --> 00:51:14,010
long and he was murdered I don't think

1129
00:51:21,109 --> 00:51:18,359
that that necessarily says anything

1130
00:51:22,579 --> 00:51:21,119
about his character or his abilities I

1131
00:51:25,099 --> 00:51:22,589
think it would have been difficult for

1132
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:25,109
anyone to maintain the government in

1133
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:27,119
that circumstance and in fact the guy

1134
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:29,010
who overthrew him didn't last very long

1135
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:31,470
either so it was it was a constant

1136
00:51:36,500 --> 00:51:34,890
turmoil for a very long time but I do

1137
00:51:38,750 --> 00:51:36,510
ask the reader to go that far you

1138
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:38,760
acknowledge it and to respect its

1139
00:51:43,370 --> 00:51:41,970
context and speaking of the reader we

1140
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:43,380
definitely have to announce your book

1141
00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:46,800
again for this man as they can get it on

1142
00:51:51,530 --> 00:51:49,200
Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other

1143
00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:51,540
booksellers yes absolutely it's in

1144
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:54,510
paperback and Kindle a metaphysical

1145
00:52:01,630 --> 00:51:57,530
Odyssey into the mexican revolution

1146
00:52:05,660 --> 00:52:01,640
francisco i madero and his secret book

1147
00:52:08,809 --> 00:52:05,670
Spiritist manual and reply see em meio

1148
00:52:10,940 --> 00:52:08,819
who is a wonderful guest today but i

1149
00:52:14,900 --> 00:52:10,950
will ask you one final question before

1150
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:14,910
we allow you to go upon your merry way

1151
00:52:20,990 --> 00:52:17,280
and have dinner in mexico city and

1152
00:52:23,540 --> 00:52:21,000
fiesta etc we hope in any case the final

1153
00:52:26,270 --> 00:52:23,550
the final sort of question i have um i

1154
00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:26,280
drew the conclusion from what you said

1155
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:29,190
maybe incorrectly that you had seen an

1156
00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:32,490
iteration of the Marfa lights oh yes

1157
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:35,520
I've so tell us about that please oh

1158
00:52:40,730 --> 00:52:37,890
yeah I didn't know they do a pic about

1159
00:52:42,050 --> 00:52:40,740
Far West Texas right now and Marfa sits

1160
00:52:45,020 --> 00:52:42,060
right in the middle of Far West Texas

1161
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:45,030
it's um an area that's some there's very

1162
00:52:50,750 --> 00:52:47,130
little population and the lights have

1163
00:52:52,579 --> 00:52:50,760
been seen they were seen by Apaches way

1164
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:52,589
they've been documented for very long

1165
00:52:57,500 --> 00:52:54,480
time yeah I saw them on several

1166
00:53:01,790 --> 00:52:57,510
occasions it's pretty amazing to see it

1167
00:53:04,550 --> 00:53:01,800
really is there yeah they're definitely

1168
00:53:06,500 --> 00:53:04,560
different and in doing my book I went

1169
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:06,510
and interviewed several people in Marfa

1170
00:53:09,650 --> 00:53:07,920
and I would just pretty much asked

1171
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:09,660
everybody I talked to at the end of the

1172
00:53:14,599 --> 00:53:12,450
interview have you seen him yeah pretty

1173
00:53:18,109 --> 00:53:14,609
much everybody and they all have

1174
00:53:20,450 --> 00:53:18,119
different stories and uh

1175
00:53:23,359 --> 00:53:20,460
it's it's really a curious phenomena it

1176
00:53:25,339 --> 00:53:23,369
really is something unusual so how did

1177
00:53:27,799 --> 00:53:25,349
you get into this field I mean these

1178
00:53:29,989 --> 00:53:27,809
books are like as ferocious said

1179
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:29,999
meticulously researched that's a lot of

1180
00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:33,930
work nada and a lot of time how did you

1181
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:36,660
come to do this well I like to read I

1182
00:53:43,940 --> 00:53:39,839
like to search I'm happy to sit at my

1183
00:53:45,799 --> 00:53:43,950
desk and read so yeah yeah no I liked it

1184
00:53:48,109 --> 00:53:45,809
I liked and I like looking at places

1185
00:53:49,730 --> 00:53:48,119
that I I'm a very curious person I

1186
00:53:52,279 --> 00:53:49,740
always have a lot of questions about

1187
00:53:53,930 --> 00:53:52,289
things so I like to go and see places

1188
00:53:57,259 --> 00:53:53,940
and I love to be able to interview

1189
00:53:58,609 --> 00:53:57,269
people which is why I did this book i'm

1190
00:54:01,400 --> 00:53:58,619
doing a book now in Far West Texas

1191
00:54:03,890 --> 00:54:01,410
because you know a book the book i did a

1192
00:54:06,170 --> 00:54:03,900
Madeira mostly I was just sitting by

1193
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:06,180
myself you know translating and reading

1194
00:54:14,210 --> 00:54:10,890
I really wanted to talk to people living

1195
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:14,220
people so so it was a great excuse to do

1196
00:54:18,529 --> 00:54:16,650
that and and and I love as a writer

1197
00:54:21,289 --> 00:54:18,539
being able to talk to people that I

1198
00:54:24,140 --> 00:54:21,299
might not meet otherwise or that they

1199
00:54:26,660 --> 00:54:24,150
would necessarily be so forthcoming with

1200
00:54:28,819 --> 00:54:26,670
me in a social environment but if I come

1201
00:54:31,609 --> 00:54:28,829
and interview them you know like I

1202
00:54:36,799 --> 00:54:31,619
energy to guy who runs a BBQ joint and a

1203
00:54:38,509 --> 00:54:36,809
rodeo racer and barrel racer and the

1204
00:54:40,099 --> 00:54:38,519
Marfa lights because of Marfa lights i

1205
00:54:42,620 --> 00:54:40,109
interviewed the guy with the local rack

1206
00:54:46,249 --> 00:54:42,630
shot yeah a lot of Marfa lights stories

1207
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:46,259
so it's really i love just all kinds of

1208
00:54:51,799 --> 00:54:48,720
people just so i'm in listening to them

1209
00:54:54,499 --> 00:54:51,809
so you've become a kind of ethnographer

1210
00:54:57,380 --> 00:54:54,509
the studs terkel of West Texas would we

1211
00:54:59,599 --> 00:54:57,390
say well then maybe the seven degree I

1212
00:55:01,339 --> 00:54:59,609
would emulate that to some degree but um

1213
00:55:02,839 --> 00:55:01,349
the Vic I'm doing right now is more

1214
00:55:05,329 --> 00:55:02,849
gonna be more like the book i did in

1215
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:05,339
baja california which is a travel memoir

1216
00:55:12,349 --> 00:55:08,130
but it also weaves in a lot of interview

1217
00:55:15,229 --> 00:55:12,359
in history and cultural things so it's a

1218
00:55:17,450 --> 00:55:15,239
personal travel memoir but it's it's

1219
00:55:19,970 --> 00:55:17,460
meant to have the structure of a novel

1220
00:55:21,769 --> 00:55:19,980
and have so it could be read ten years

1221
00:55:25,039 --> 00:55:21,779
later and a person can get a lot out of

1222
00:55:27,349 --> 00:55:25,049
it speak the name of it see i'm sure

1223
00:55:29,210 --> 00:55:27,359
people get it well that pic is called

1224
00:55:30,670 --> 00:55:29,220
it's got a funny title it's called

1225
00:55:33,250 --> 00:55:30,680
miraculous air

1226
00:55:36,910 --> 00:55:33,260
journey of a thousand miles through Baja

1227
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:36,920
California the other Mexico that's that

1228
00:55:42,190 --> 00:55:39,410
thousand mile long Peninsula that

1229
00:55:44,140 --> 00:55:42,200
belongs to Mexico that hangs off of San

1230
00:55:47,950 --> 00:55:44,150
Diego so that's that what that book is

1231
00:55:50,410 --> 00:55:47,960
about so the victim to me now is about

1232
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:50,420
far west texas so i meant it to be sort

1233
00:55:55,870 --> 00:55:52,490
of a companion but to the book on baja

1234
00:55:59,050 --> 00:55:55,880
california but it's involving a lot of

1235
00:56:01,480 --> 00:55:59,060
reading so i'm doing a lot of but uh but

1236
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:01,490
it's and it's also a story about

1237
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:03,530
northern Mexico because of course Texas

1238
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:07,010
used to be part of Mexico so so it's

1239
00:56:11,860 --> 00:56:08,810
still in a way I'm still writing about

1240
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:11,870
Mexico it's very very very interesting

1241
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:16,490
your room you're riding on these various

1242
00:56:21,580 --> 00:56:18,650
subjects and maybe you'll become it was

1243
00:56:23,070 --> 00:56:21,590
at the paul theroux of the southwest i'm

1244
00:56:26,830 --> 00:56:23,080
trying to think of the literary

1245
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:26,840
comparison I'm sorry I'm you can't she's

1246
00:56:33,460 --> 00:56:29,330
in she's gonna clash by herself well

1247
00:56:35,620 --> 00:56:33,470
certainly her rub her research is in a

1248
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:35,630
class by itself yeah really it's very

1249
00:56:41,830 --> 00:56:39,530
fascinating and I it's it's great that

1250
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:41,840
you know as we've sort of said before

1251
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:43,490
that you bring up these various topics

1252
00:56:49,090 --> 00:56:45,650
it's important that people start to

1253
00:56:51,460 --> 00:56:49,100
discuss them and very much so it it just

1254
00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:51,470
sort of adds to the quality of life it

1255
00:56:56,350 --> 00:56:53,420
expands your way of thinking about

1256
00:56:59,290 --> 00:56:56,360
things and maybe not so cut and dry and

1257
00:57:01,060 --> 00:56:59,300
you know it tends to make life a little

1258
00:57:04,540 --> 00:57:01,070
bit more interesting and a little bit

1259
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:04,550
more livable mm-hmm and I think if I if

1260
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:09,650
I can kind of and with an invitation to

1261
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:13,130
the listeners which is I think I think

1262
00:57:17,740 --> 00:57:16,370
that oftentimes in the u.s. we there are

1263
00:57:20,890 --> 00:57:17,750
many people who do know a lot about

1264
00:57:23,530 --> 00:57:20,900
Mexico that's for sure but I think that

1265
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:23,540
a lot of people think they know more

1266
00:57:29,050 --> 00:57:26,960
than they do because their images of

1267
00:57:31,870 --> 00:57:29,060
Mexico are so present in the media and

1268
00:57:34,180 --> 00:57:31,880
they're very present with advertising

1269
00:57:37,090 --> 00:57:34,190
from the tourist industry so there's

1270
00:57:39,730 --> 00:57:37,100
this image of Mexico that we have that

1271
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:39,740
we get in the US and they're also I

1272
00:57:43,660 --> 00:57:41,450
think a lot of ideas that come from the

1273
00:57:44,550 --> 00:57:43,670
past you know even going back to

1274
00:57:47,130 --> 00:57:44,560
rivalries

1275
00:57:49,860 --> 00:57:47,140
between England and Spain there they go

1276
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:49,870
into the deep past that they come with

1277
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:53,680
enduring presumptions to use a term of

1278
00:57:59,820 --> 00:57:56,130
my favorite historian John to t know

1279
00:58:03,810 --> 00:57:59,830
that I think actually there's a lot more

1280
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:03,820
there it's a very rich and very complex

1281
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:06,250
tapestry of culture and history and

1282
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:09,370
there's a lot more than I think most

1283
00:58:13,710 --> 00:58:11,410
people would gasp and I've been here

1284
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:13,720
over 25 years and I'm learning something

1285
00:58:19,650 --> 00:58:16,570
new every day I'm just continually

1286
00:58:22,020 --> 00:58:19,660
amazed by big things I learned every day

1287
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:22,030
so it's just never ending but the

1288
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:26,170
richness and the complexity of Mexico is

1289
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:28,570
what I'd really like to invite listeners

1290
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:31,330
to consider and explore and become

1291
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:34,690
curious about I again miss Pett it's

1292
00:58:39,450 --> 00:58:37,330
past the stereotype and into the reality

1293
00:58:41,790 --> 00:58:39,460
and it's the same thing as people

1294
00:58:43,140 --> 00:58:41,800
stereotype things like spiritism and

1295
00:58:45,540 --> 00:58:43,150
then when they read about it they get

1296
00:58:49,140 --> 00:58:45,550
into the reality of it so yeah I agree

1297
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:49,150
with you a hundred percent I think the

1298
00:58:54,860 --> 00:58:51,970
perception of Mexico is really badly

1299
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:54,870
colored now by present-day politics but

1300
00:58:59,220 --> 00:58:57,760
you know the reality of his people in

1301
00:59:03,150 --> 00:58:59,230
both countries probably don't really

1302
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:03,160
care about the politics well I would I

1303
00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:04,930
would compare what you're saying about

1304
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:08,110
the variety of Mexico and the the lack

1305
00:59:13,230 --> 00:59:10,450
of understanding in this country about

1306
00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:13,240
the variety if the way that we as

1307
00:59:17,340 --> 00:59:15,280
Americans and I'm generalizing here

1308
00:59:19,770 --> 00:59:17,350
because I don't think this way

1309
00:59:22,530 --> 00:59:19,780
necessarily but we think about Mexican

1310
00:59:25,110 --> 00:59:22,540
food all we think about is an gelatos

1311
00:59:27,390 --> 00:59:25,120
and tacos and burritos and if you go to

1312
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:27,400
the different areas of Mexico you see

1313
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:32,290
what a vast different kinds of sort of

1314
00:59:39,230 --> 00:59:35,050
cuisines there are and at just in that

1315
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:39,240
little area it's sort of like a like a

1316
00:59:43,260 --> 00:59:41,770
microscopic version of the the whole

1317
00:59:45,630 --> 00:59:43,270
situation because there's such a

1318
00:59:48,780 --> 00:59:45,640
wonderful variety of of Mexican cuisine

1319
00:59:52,610 --> 00:59:48,790
that you can dine on in Mexico yeah it's

1320
00:59:55,340 --> 00:59:52,620
really true that is true yeah

1321
00:59:58,970 --> 00:59:55,350
yeah well thank you so much yes so

1322
01:00:02,210 --> 00:59:58,980
adorable Mao metaphysical Odyssey into

1323
01:00:07,460 --> 01:00:02,220
the mexican revolution francisco i

1324
01:00:11,060 --> 01:00:07,470
madero and his secret book Spiritist

1325
01:00:13,370 --> 01:00:11,070
manual thank you see em yeah their

1326
01:00:18,620 --> 01:00:13,380
delight and an honor thank you so much

1327
01:00:20,780 --> 01:00:18,630
so here by now by dan thank you so Kate

1328
01:00:23,930 --> 01:00:20,790
wasn't that it wasn't that interesting

1329
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:23,940
because it sort of brought together all

1330
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:26,250
this I had to learn right yet should I

1331
01:00:32,780 --> 01:00:30,330
hang up oh I guess I guess we're just

1332
01:00:34,250 --> 01:00:32,790
sort of concluding our show notes and

1333
01:00:36,260 --> 01:00:34,260
we're going to talk about our future

1334
01:00:38,180 --> 01:00:36,270
stuff but we really appreciate your

1335
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:38,190
waiting for you to hang up to at least

1336
01:00:43,700 --> 01:00:41,850
say what we thought but not at all

1337
01:00:46,220 --> 01:00:43,710
what's recorded for the show I just want

1338
01:00:48,860 --> 01:00:46,230
to say thank you so much okay well sweet

1339
01:00:50,810 --> 01:00:48,870
thank you and have a great evening well

1340
01:00:54,110 --> 01:00:50,820
and windless question for you i would

1341
01:00:55,930 --> 01:00:54,120
love to put this on my website so um do

1342
01:01:00,350 --> 01:00:55,940
you have an idea when it would be out

1343
01:01:03,530 --> 01:01:00,360
yeah um well we generally get things out

1344
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:03,540
within um two to three days oh my

1345
01:01:09,500 --> 01:01:06,450
goodness you're fast that's bill no

1346
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:09,510
thank you to our you can say a big thank

1347
01:01:16,580 --> 01:01:12,330
you to our wonderful engineer bill OH

1348
01:01:20,420 --> 01:01:16,590
bill thank you I do my own pod casts and

1349
01:01:23,510 --> 01:01:20,430
I take forever cuz oh my gosh I know I'm

1350
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:23,520
really slow oh well thank you well golly

1351
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:25,200
well I will keep an eye out and i'll be

1352
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:26,640
sure to put it on my blog and website

1353
01:01:33,260 --> 01:01:30,240
and all that well let us know and we

1354
01:01:37,940 --> 01:01:33,270
will put your um your blog up as well

1355
01:01:41,690 --> 01:01:37,950
okay then well thanks you and well up

1356
01:01:47,750 --> 01:01:41,700
till soon okay hasta LaVista I love you

1357
01:01:51,860 --> 01:01:47,760
right so as I was saying this was very

1358
01:01:54,860 --> 01:01:51,870
educational and um it just is nice to

1359
01:01:58,400 --> 01:01:54,870
think about how ideas about the

1360
01:02:01,280 --> 01:01:58,410
supernatural and the paranormal and the

1361
01:02:03,310 --> 01:02:01,290
spiritual if you will can shape the

1362
01:02:07,060 --> 01:02:03,320
historical context

1363
01:02:10,030 --> 01:02:07,070
yeah something that oh yeah I mean a new

1364
01:02:12,250 --> 01:02:10,040
religious amigo religion is kind of a

1365
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:12,260
lot clearer you know a lot of wars are

1366
01:02:18,060 --> 01:02:14,960
fought over religion um but when it

1367
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:18,070
comes to these kind of more esoteric

1368
01:02:25,750 --> 01:02:20,530
philosophies we don't necessarily

1369
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:25,760
consider how they might affect our our

1370
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:28,250
own history and you know who knows what

1371
01:02:32,710 --> 01:02:31,130
Nancy Reagan was told by the astrology

1372
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:32,720
for instance and I'm not picking on poor

1373
01:02:39,940 --> 01:02:36,490
Nancy but it's that kind of thing no

1374
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:39,950
well he had a relatively successful with

1375
01:02:46,060 --> 01:02:43,610
President oh yes yeah absolutely yeah so

1376
01:02:49,030 --> 01:02:46,070
in any case I'll this shows maybe this

1377
01:02:52,630 --> 01:02:49,040
draws you knew some I maybe maybe miss

1378
01:02:55,390 --> 01:02:52,640
the one big thing though beware the ides

1379
01:02:58,330 --> 01:02:55,400
of whatever it was ya bang bang yeah um

1380
01:03:00,640 --> 01:02:58,340
another night she was okay in any case

1381
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:00,650
we have shattered some reality here

1382
01:03:07,750 --> 01:03:03,410
again today and we are looking forward

1383
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:07,760
to some very excellent guests that I may

1384
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:12,530
have gotten a viet visa V the Society

1385
01:03:18,190 --> 01:03:15,410
for scientific exploration symposium and

1386
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:18,200
it's a that fast 15 times and and talk

1387
01:03:24,190 --> 01:03:19,930
about being put down that is

1388
01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:24,200
consistently put down by the break the

1389
01:03:32,830 --> 01:03:28,160
material is a mechanistic scientism

1390
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:32,840
world in the 19th century paradigm of

1391
01:03:38,260 --> 01:03:35,690
the universe which has been proven not

1392
01:03:40,540 --> 01:03:38,270
so no just useful though it's useful to

1393
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:40,550
yeah like inventing the internal

1394
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:42,410
combustion engine antibiotics things

1395
01:03:47,530 --> 01:03:44,930
like that yeah yeah yeah yeah but you

1396
01:03:50,350 --> 01:03:47,540
can't make people live long enough to

1397
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:50,360
study things so that they can disprove

1398
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:53,810
it yeah yeah but as self defeating us

1399
01:04:01,150 --> 01:03:57,170
max planck said consciousness is

1400
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:01,160
fundamental yeah yeah yeah perhaps you

1401
01:04:07,540 --> 01:04:04,970
know so you think so you think you going

1402
01:04:12,730 --> 01:04:07,550
on there I don't know in any case of

1403
01:04:16,060 --> 01:04:12,740
before we go on ad nauseam here let's